It’s The Time Of Your Life, So Live It Well
Posted on March 27th, 2007 in Made In Alberta, Mating And Relating, Polyamory
Unknown to most of you, there has been quite an interesting little exchange going between myself and a new commenter to this blog, on some posts from the past.
Please check out the comment sections on this post and this post if you want to catch up.
He has left me with quite a long question that I wanted to share with all of you, so that my answers could shed some more light for all of my readers.
danexplorer said…
Thanks shasta. Looking forward to that.
I’d appreciate it if you’d either respond in the comments to this post, or point here to where you respond elsewhere.
My hopes for poly would be:
1) it could keep sexual interest with my main partner at a high pitch for both of us, I’d hope (if the opposite happened for long I’d be devastated;
2) it MIGHT help keep the relationship together by virtue of 1) but also more love and friendship/sex from others hopefully stimulating jealous (in a controlled way I’d hope) competing from the primary partner and hence keeping things invigorated and affectionate (again if it didn’t work this way and in fact it became a way for her to find a better alternative, I’d be devastated);
3) and lastly, but not unimportantly, a way to have safer sex with others for me as well as her, and hence a fantasy fulfillment.My fear is that the common wisdom is right. That pair bonded relationships married or not which then move into poly tend not to last. More than otherwise, that is. And further that one person generally gets far more out of it in all ways than the other, but has a ready rationale, ideology and support system for denying that they are acting selfishly and hurtfully. Actually that last wouldn’t necessarily bother me so much as BOTH were in fact getting lots out of it, and deep caring (deep enough to break off with others that became too much of perceived threat) remained or (is it possible?) increased.
I’d also guess without knowing, that contrary to popular belief at least out there in the clueless mainstream, that it’s usually the women who make out better, often “trade up” with lots of “trying out” beforehand in a lot more fulsome manner than your typical furtive affair. (I see lots of reasons why this seems likely to me to be so, but this comment is long enough already.)
That is except for a FEW men, who may well make out just as well (number of most desirable poly dance partners, or “applicants” waiting.
I’d be REALLY fascinated to hear your thoughts on these hopes and fears as well, you sexy and OH so intriguing girl!
DanExplorer,
Thank you again for your comments and questions on the blog. Jack and I have enjoyed reading and talking about them.
I actually find your hopes for poly interesting. The second one in particular, which is the basis of a ongoing joke amongst the poly crowd that I know. That joke being “Relationship Broken: Add More People”.
However, I will come back to that. Let me speak to your points one at a time.
1) While this does happen for some people, we didn’t find that it worked for very long. After a while, the idea of your partner having sex with someone else becomes so normal that it isn’t all that exciting anymore. There is also the fact that the idea of Jack having sex with someone else is not a turn-on for me at all.
In addition to this, unless you are still in your early 20′s it’s more likely that sex with your original partner will actually decrease in frequency once either of you begin seeing additional partners. After spending four hours rolling around with K, I rarely felt inclined to have sex with Jack once I got home. Likewise I doubt that Jack would have much energy left for me after getting home from a pro-longed date. Time and energy are not unlimited. Some people look at this as a perk of poly, especially if sexual appetites are mis-matched between the original partners.
Swinging is much more likely to have the desired effect on your sex life.
2) Adding more people to a relationship that is already in trouble is almost a guaranteed death sentence. I can say with 100% confidence that if Jack and I didn’t have such an incredibly strong relationship to begin with, poly would have driven us to file for divorce by this point. There have been many times along the way that we were so at odds with each other, a weaker relationship would have crumbled under the pressure. It happens, the entire community knows this and speaks about it often.
Also, I don’t think that there is such a thing as ‘controlled jealousy’. Not in the way that I believe you intended it. Jealousy and competition between partners is a VERY BAD THING. It will not titillate your primary into working harder for your affection. It will make her bitter and resentful. No one wants to feel that they are competing for the attention of their partner. That is what causes so many of us to struggle. Feelings of competition lead to wanting to take out whoever it is you are competing with. This often ends in horrible confrontations and ultimatums.
3) If you want to fulfill a fantasy, again I suggest you try swinging instead of polyamory. Certainly there is sex, but most poly people will resent being added into a relationship to fill some sort of pre-determined ‘slot’. People are unpredictable, they have feelings, and fantasies are sometimes better left in the realm of the imagination. Threesomes can be hot, provided that the person you end up with is actually attracted to both of you and understands the dynamics of your current relationship.
My personal goals for poly are more or less centered around what I believe is a less constrictive relationship paradigm between humans.
1) I hope to deal with my personal demons and reach a ‘higher’ state of self-awareness. I think that polyamory forces all of us to battle our insecurities, and I have yet to find a less vigorous crash course in learning to love ones self.
2) To explore people and relationships outside of the confines of monogamy. How well can you really get to know a person, or them to know you, if you are fighting feelings of attraction for them? I have formed deeper friendships and closer romantic relationships with people because I am more genuine with them, and with myself. I am also fascinated to learn more about how people relate to each other when there are fewer socially imposed rules and regulations in place.
3) Our journey thus far has brought Jack and I closer than we ever thought possible. We have learned so many new things about each other, and I hope that our triumphs and struggles through poly continue to teach us new ways of thinking and relating to each other.
4) To fill my life with more love, with more people, and with more adventures.
I believe that polyamory is really less of a ‘relationship type’ and more of a state of mind. Even if I never have another relationship outside of my marriage to Jack, I will consider myself non-monogamous for life because of what I believe.
Monogamy should be a choice, but it should not be the ONLY choice.
People should not have to decide between either being single or having a monogamous relationship. To me that is like telling you that you can either eat chicken or beef (not both, you have to pick one) for the rest of your natural life. No trying the shrimp or sampling the buffet. You can only have one or the other. How absurd! We don’t tell people how many children they can have (well, not in this country anyway). We don’t tell them how many cars they can have (although I think we should). How on earth do we get away with telling them how many romantic partners they can have?
But I digress.
I might say that I have already achieved the greatest goal any of us could have. I broadened my way of thinking. I opened myself up to possibilities I once considered to be impossible, and morally reprehensible. I have taken a look under the rocks in my soul and discovered all of the ugly things that are hidden underneath. I have come to a better understanding of what love is, and I have a greater appreciation for my marriage. Jack and I have tested our relationship to it’s very limits and come out on the other side even more committed to each other and to our future happiness.
So, I hope that made that clear 
LOL, I know I can be awfully long-winded.
Now, the fears part.
It is true that poly can ruin pair-bonded relationships. It is my belief that some relationships are far too fragile for poly to be successful. Two people must be entirely committed to investing almost ALL of their time and energy into the effort. This may sound absurd to some, but I would say that polyamory rivals the raising of small children when it comes to the emotional/time commitment that it extracts. At least, it has for us. Not all the time, mind you, there will be points when everything flows along nicely. However, when shit hits the fan, everything else that isn’t necessary for survival seems to grind to a halt until said issue is taken care of. Many couples cannot take the strain of it. The friction becomes to great, or like you said, one is getting more out of it than the other.
A few words about that. Before you make assertions that the balance in the relationship is off, make sure that the relationship hasn’t been designed that way. There are some people that get into poly situations and arrange them in a way where it would appear they are getting the short end of the stick. One example I know of is a ‘V’ amongst two men and a woman, her being the hinge. One of the men wanted to be poly because he likes to be in a relationship, but requires a LOT of alone-time. He found the perfect situation since he gets to spend part of his time with his girlfriend, and gets all of the required alone time he wants. This is hard to come by in a monogamous relationship, particularly if your partner has a very low need for personal space. The girlfriend was happy because she got to be with someone who normally wouldn’t want to be with her because he would feel she was too ‘clingy’. The other male in the V also dated other women casually, but nothing serious, because he liked to have lots of companionship and sometimes the girlfriend was not available due to the other boyfriend. It all worked out beautifully, and no one was unhappy.
From the outside, that arrangement may seem vastly unfair. It is important to get to know the dynamics of a relationship before passing any judgements on it.
Yes, it DOES happen that one partner gets screwed, more or less, but the only person who can be accountable for that, it them. You need to be accountable for getting what you want in life. I mean, I can go around wanting a new vehicle until the cows come home and just hope that it falls into my lap. Not likely to happen though is it. As opposed to working hard and saving up and then buying it when I am financially able to do so. Relationships are the same way. Good ones don’t fall into your lap, you have to make them happen. As I am fond of saying, asking for what you want is a good way to get it.
If you feel a relationship is unfairly one-sided, ask for what you want. I have asked Jack for a break, which he has granted, and he has asked me to make every effort to work out my crap, which I am doing as fast as I possibly can. I think that when we give up our power, and put ourselves in the role of being a victim, then we trampled on. If we refuse to allow that to happen, things generally go a lot better for us.
As for woman making out better in poly than men. I disagree. I think that we pretty much all come out equal when you measure who gets hurt more or who succeeds more. I actually don’t know anyone who has used poly as a method of ‘trading up’ since poly requires so much honesty, integrity, and ethical behaviour. Anything less than that, in my view, falls into adultery. There is no place for deception or ulterior motives in this lifestyle. If you want to claim to be poly and just use it as a way to find someone ‘better’ than your current spouse, you’re no better than a cheater, and cut from the same cloth, if you ask me.
Of course, there are times when poly will lead you to discover that your current partner and you are not made to be together in the context of poly, and that can cause a breakup where additional partners are kept and the original partner leaves. That is a different story entirely.
Well, I hope that was long-winded enough for you, HA HA. It certainly is for me. I hope it provides you some things to think about and I look forward with anticipation to your response.
March 28th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Great post, lots of good information in there!
Julie
Reply To The Above Comment
March 28th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Shasta–
Thanks much. A most interesting and thought provoking response.
It’s gone to take a bit of time (which is short for me right now) and mulling around of the those thoughts you’ve provoked for me to respond. But I shall, I shall.
I really want to continue this dialog.
Reply To The Above Comment
March 28th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Miss Blue,
Thank You
I am glad you think so, and I appreciate you taking the time to comment.
DanExplorer,
Excellent! I look forward to your response and to future sharing of thoughts and ideas. I am quite pleased that you happened across my blog and have chosen to comment here.
*XOXO*
Shasta
Reply To The Above Comment
March 28th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Actually I do have some questions for you before my more considered response. Some thoughts have gelled. Not all. This is a very interesting area for me at the moment.
First by way of background, let me say that I’m not in a troubled relationship that I’m considering trying to save by poly. I recently ended a medium term relationship that became troubled (and was always sorta special purpose though we’d hoped it might develop further – long story). I’ve considered poly before, and done some things around the edges of it or which could be called that by non purists, but never in my life have I considered it as a way to save a troubled relationship. Being between relationships and dating I’m reconsidering what I want in various ways.
These questions / surmises for you to accept or reject are perhaps a bit indelicate, but it seems to me concrete facts do matter here.
I had gathered from several posts from you following my Feb 5 comment (I certainly haven’t read them all), that you’d calmed greatly after your husband had apparently his first extra-pair night of really all the way sex with a lust/love interest. I’d gathered, it now seems wrongly, that’s you’d told him after a bit, ok, I know I’ve been unfair and unreasonable (that you say you did say) and that therefore you can proceed. Now I gather the therefore part wasn’t there. You’re not ready yet. Which you told me in a comment response re: your Feb 5 post, is ok with both of you, because it was your husband, out of his great love for you, who insisted that you be totally honest and not just “put on a brave face” and “grin and bear it” if you’re really jealous.
So you’ve been having multiple fulsome sexual relations with several male and female partners, some of them for most of the last 16 or so months that you convinced your husband to try poly. But he’s had sex beyond you (with that notably diminished) only once, which caused you to go meltdown. In part because “there is also the fact that the idea of Jack having sex with someone else is not a turn-on for me at all.” I.e. it’s inherently something you have a big problem with. Whereas for him with you, not so much. Or he may even get turned on by it, if he doesn’t think he’ll either lose you completely, or lose most or all fulsome sex with you.
Further I gather that from what you say above that your liaisons with others have tended after a short initial bit to make you less, not more, interested in sex with your husband Jack. Time and energy are limited you noted. And your sexual energy becomes more focused elsewhere. As well I would guess because it’s poly and not swinging, your romantic love energy becomes more focused elsewhere as well (in sometimes the being and other times the hoping and imagining). After all, no promises are made in poly, as are common in swinging, to cut things off with someone else, if one becomes emotionally involved/in love with that person. The reverse. (Other’s brought in will resent being brought into a slot, you said, more or less.)
Statements such as the following strike me as pretty rose colored and vague (hiding more than they reveal): “Our journey thus far has brought Jack and I closer than we ever thought possible. We have learned so many new things about each other, and I hope that our triumphs and struggles through poly continue to teach us new ways of thinking and relating to each other.” The impression I’m getting is that Jack is devoted to making you happy almost regardless of at what sacrifice to his own interests (other than your staying with him and being happy with him), so long as you’re appreciative. And you’re thrilled by Jack’s devotion and your journey of emotional and sexual discovery, while Jack makes sure to not do anything which makes you jealous, or uncomfortable or insecure. While he sublimates those feelings in himself and his sexual desire into his deepening chivalric love for you. Regardless of how sexually imbalanced that turns out to be. You’re BOTH interested in Shasta’s growing and working through her jealousy, but until and unless you do, Jack is adamant that your feelings come first. While you can keep on focusing on your own sexual and romantic interest away from Jack, secure in the warmth of his self sacrificing companionate love and affection, and I’d guess (it’s usually the case) considerably greater financial contribution.
I don’t know, maybe much of this is not right. Seems rather like it pretty much is though. I know it isn’t how you two look at it. But I’m trying to get at the facts, just the facts, right now. I hope I’m not offending you. I’m asking these questions from the point of view of someone who’s genuinely intrigued and even somewhat considering, with a lot of worry but also interest.
As a parting thought for now, try flipping the genders here, completely, Shasta and readers both, and Jack as well. Straight up flip. I wonder how many of your readers wouldn’t be asking very hard questions in that case?
Regardless of anything, I’ve read enough here to know you two have embarked on a brave and exciting and hott journey, and are honestly telling about it.
Hugs.
Reply To The Above Comment
March 29th, 2007 at 12:37 am
DanExplorer,
Phew, you are going to make me think hard on this, aren’t you, LOL.
You seem to be rather focused on the ‘fairness’ between Jack and I. You have observed correctly that at the moment, things are quite one-sided in this poly arrangement.
I would first like to correct you, in that Jack has never had sexual intercourse with anyone besides me, well, besides K (my ex-boyfriend). It has generally not been because I have restricted him, but because it took him over a year to manage to find a woman willing to be open to poly, and then she turned out to be a flake, and then only a couple of months ago did the possibility come round again.
I am not sure if you have read over the first 6 months of this blog, but I suggest you do. If only because the roles were reversed, in most senses. Jack struggled immensely with my feelings for K, and more than once breaks were imposed so that he could deal with his feelings. He was very reactionary during that time, and he will be the first one to admit it. He will also be the first one to tell you that eventually something ‘clicked’ for him and the feelings of jealousy faded away. He still feels twinges of it now and then, but not to the same degree as he used to.
As for my sexual activities. I can say with confidence that I have only had sexual relations with two people, on two seperate and singular occassions, since before Christmas. The female(s) you refered to was actually only one woman, and her and I do not have a sexual relationship. She helped me to test a product so that I could fulfill an obligation and agreement with a adult toy company. We didn’t kiss, touch each other sexual, or otherwise indulge in carnal activities. It was strictly business.
My sexual activities in the past 16 months actually boil down to only two people (I am not including my female friend, because that wasn’t my idea of sexual relations). I had, before last October, two on-going sexual relationships, and one regretable fling that lasted minutes. Since October, as I said, only two isolated incidents.
With this blog, you will find, it is difficult to draw too many conclusions unless you have read from the beginning. It’s something like trying to jump into a play half-way though, without knowing much about the background story. The evolution of things from the very beginning is rather important.
Also, if you read from the beginning, you will find that poly was not entirely my idea. In fact Jack convinced and cajoled me into experimenting outside of our marriage. I was fiercly monogamous before that, and didn’t discover poly until we were quite accidentally up to our eyebrows in it. Jack has total veto power, and could have put a stop to any of it at any time. We made a decision together to see where this takes us.
I didn’t really think that my statement about how Jack and I have learned more about our relationship was vague. It’s impossible, or at least vastly difficult, to express to a stranger how my marriage has evolved. It’s more a lack of accurate description rather than an effort to hide something on my part. We have changed as people, we have grown, we have learned new things about each other. We have discovered the insecurities and deepest fears of each other. If that doesn’t make any sense, then I am at a loss to explain it.
As for Jack being devoted to making me happy, yes that is true, just as I am devoted to making him happy as well (believe it or not). In fact, there are an awful lot of instances where Jack does NOT bend over backwards to make me happy, and many of them do not make it onto the blog. Jack often felt that I was making him out to be horrible and controlling on this blog, I have made an effort not to do that anymore. Perhaps we have swung too far the other way and now he looks like a pathetic and doting lap-dog.
Your assertion that I am focusing on my own sexual interests elsewhere is completely off-base. In fact, I haven’t been interested in anyone but Jack for quite some time. I have gone on dates, and I have flirted with other males, but my intentions are playful, and there is no serious interest elsewhere. Perhaps it would be helpful if I could convince Jack to write something, to speak from his side, but it’s like pulling hen’s teeth with that man, LOL.
I don’t think that the lack of ‘tough questions’ has anything to do with me being a woman. Rather, it is my belief, that most of my commenters at this point have been reading me long enough to know the entire story. A good many of them have taken the time to read every single post in the archives. If you go back you will see that intially I DID get a lot of very tough, and in some cases, very cruel comments.
Most poly relationships, at one time or another, are off-balance. When people are struggling with emotions, the supportive and loving thing to do is to give them time to deal with. To do otherwise breeds resentment and bitterness that can poison the relationship beyond repair. Neither of us wants that to happen, nor do we intend to allow it. Jack was given time to adjust, he is returning that consideration to me, although he is far more graceful about it.
I do hope that clarifies things, at least to some extent.
Your questions continue to be welcomed, but I would ask that you read a few of the following posts if you haven’t already:
http://stilettodiaries.blogspot.com/2005/11/how-we-got-here-or-its-all-jacks-fault.html
http://stilettodiaries.blogspot.com/2005/11/how-we-got-here-pt-2.html
http://stilettodiaries.blogspot.com/2005/11/how-we-got-here-pt-3.html
http://stilettodiaries.blogspot.com/2006/02/sometimes-i-hate-blogging.html
http://stilettodiaries.blogspot.com/2006/02/this-is-rather-long-post.html
http://stilettodiaries.blogspot.com/2006/02/holy-shit-am-i-getting-long-winded.html
http://stilettodiaries.blogspot.com/2006/03/fuck-fuck-fuck.html
There are more, but that should keep you busy for a little while
*XOXO*
Shasta
Reply To The Above Comment
March 29th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Shasta, as always thanks for the great post. I agree with your personal hopes for poly and what it can add to your life. I want much the same for myself.
I also agree that poly is an incredible personal experience that allows you to grow as a person if you want that growth. You do end up confronting internal demons you never even knew existed. It is so much more of a growth opportunity if those you are involved also use the relationship as an opportunity to grow as well – but it isn’t necessary for your own personal groth.
I am a little saddened by your responses to DanExplorer… though I can see your points clearly.
I think poly can be a bad thing for a relationship if any person caught in the newness of a new relationship is so selfish they can’t see the harm they are doing to their first relationship. In order to truly be poly, you have to be willing to balance that exciting newness with the understanding that it will fade, and you have to keep existing partners in mind. If you roll around for 4 hours with one partner and ignore or neglect your existing partners and their needs as a result , well then that is hardly a loving example. I don’t mean to point fingers or judge you, but it is your example.
I’m sure it is an extreme example to get your point across, because just be the nature of your posts I see a kind, loving person who truly wants to be a loving person with those in her life. We all can grow in some areas. But the folks who read your blog may not be able to give you this benefit of the doubt since most people just want to prove folks like you and me wrong.
I think poly is like anything in life… it is what you make it. It can make or break your relationship, you personally, etc… if you let it. Or you can take what it lends you… lessons in life, love, and personal growth.
Reply To The Above Comment
March 29th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Mon Mon,
Thank you for the comment
I always love hearing from you.
You make an excellent point, and I admit that may not have been the best choice of words in my response. I meant to put it across as a general example, no necessarily one that Jack and I have experienced in a significant way. In fact, I don’t think that Jack EVER felt sexually neglected or like he was getting less from me. I was more or less drawing the conclusion that it can happen, from poly books and people who I have spoken to. I just wanted DanExplorer to know that increased sexual excitement is not a realistic hope in terms of poly relationships.
Jack and I have had no issues with the frequency of our sexual intimacy, or with a lack of emotional attention. In fact, as Jack was reading DanExplorer’s comment last night, Jack remarked that the observation that sexual/affectionate energy is directed elsewhere, is completely false.
The good news is, Jack has been inspired to post something! WooHoo
He says he wants to mull things over before he puts anything on ‘paper’ but he intends to add his voice to this discussion as well.
I hope that this cleared up whatever it was that made you sad. I do hate to see any of my readers feel that I have said something that disappointing. I invite you to respond if you wish, since I enjoy reading your thoughts.
*Hugs*
Shasta
Reply To The Above Comment
March 29th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Thanks for clarifying your example. I kinda get from your blog that you two are a sexy and sex-loving couple who enjoy each other quite enthusiastically. (grin)
I find your blog refreshing and inspiring because you rarely sugar coat your poly views or trials. You are just you in every situation you describe. It is nice to find someone in the poly community who will admit that poly isn’t all roses and champagne. Ugh. I get so tired of reading poly board after poly board where they sell poly like it’s life’s answers to all world problems, “If only everyone were poly, what a happier place this would be…” BLAH!
I’m a realist, and more than that, I’m HUMAN. By our very nature, we make it almost impossible to be happy 100% of the time. We also are unique individuals who can’t always agree on what happiness really is nor what the true path is to achieve happiness. Sometimes in our quest for happiness or perfection, I think we lose sight of the path and the joys it could bring if we just let it happen. I’m guilty of this as well.
I, for one, celebrate our individuality and respect everyone’s right to be poly or not to be poly. All I want is the same respect.
So. While I may not “get” your thoughts entirely, nor those of your wonderful husband – I am so glad that you guys share your thoughts with us.
I look forward to Jack’s post.
Reply To The Above Comment
March 29th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Mon Mon,
Thank you for commenting back. I have actually found from talking to so many people about sex, that Jack and I have an above-average sex life. We believe that sexual intimacy is a very important part of our relationship and it’s not something we neglect.
Your compliments on my blog flatter me
I can relate to your observations about other poly boards, and how happy-go-lucky everyone tries to be. I don’t feel that it’s fair to just portray the good aspects of poly. It’s not easy for most of us, and I do make my very best effort to be honest. Sometimes I really dread writing here, especially when things are particularly jumbled. I remind myself that this place is for me, because I want to have an accurate (as possible) record of where we have been, and of what has happened along the way. If other people can get something out of my writing, all the better.
I agree with your observations on the pursuit of happiness. We get so fixated on the goal that we sabatoge our journey. That is another reason I blog. It forces me to really slow down and examine my life on a regular basis, rather than just going through the motions.
I am pleased that you enjoy this blog, and I don’t think that realistically we can ever ‘get’ another person’s thoughts 100% of the time, LOL. Especially because so many of my best thoughts and moments never make it onto this site. The events and ideas are too numerous, and it’s hard to decide what to make a priority at any given time.
Thank you for reading. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me and with the rest of the readers here.
*Hugs*
Shasta
Reply To The Above Comment